Lessons from W. Michael Caudle, PhD

Ulemu Luhanga: 00:02

Hello, listeners, welcome to Educational Landscapes, Lessons from Leaders. On today's episode, we are going to learn from Mike Caudle. Welcome to the show, Mike.

Mike Caudle: 00:11

Thank you very much. It's great to be here.

Ulemu Luhanga: 00:14

Wonderful. So to get us going, what is your educational leadership title or titles?

Mike Caudle: 00:20

So I am currently an associate professor in the Department of Environmental Health. And also within that department, I serve as the director of graduate studies for our environmental health sciences PhD program.

Ulemu Luhanga: 00:33

Ooh, that's a mouthful. I would love to hear more about what you do in that role, and actually what is environmental health studies?

Mike Caudle: 00:42

Yeah. So we can think about environmental health very broadly. So it is any sort of exposure that you have, whether that is something that is in the air, something in your water or your food. We typically think about it as exposure to different chemicals and how those chemicals impact your health. But again, thinking a little bit more broadly, we can also think about what we categorize as non-chemical exposures. So I always think about or give the example of stress or trauma, and we know those have such a dramatic impact on people's health. So that would fall under the heading of environmental health because that is part of our environment.

Ulemu Luhanga: 01:30

Okay.

Mike Caudle: 01:30

And so within that space, I think I would best categorize the work that I do as broadly mentoring. So serving as a mentor, but also serving as a facilitator. So the majority of my interaction on a day-to-day basis is with students. And so in each of the spaces I'm interacting with them, whether that's in the classroom, in a laboratory, just in a one-on-one situation, I want to make sure that I am arming them with the best information possible.

Mike Caudle: 02:05

I want to make sure that they have access to the resources that they need, the information that they need, the outlets that they need, so that they can make the best decisions for themselves, whether that's for their academic path, their career path, life path, whatever it may be. So I would say that I take on a very broad role in that regard.

Ulemu Luhanga: 02:29

Indeed, indeed. And so I'm very curious, given the breadth, what skills do you use in your role?

Mike Caudle: 02:38

I use a whole bunch of skills that I was never trained in.

Ulemu Luhanga: 02:41

Tell me more.

Mike Caudle: 02:44

Yeah, so I was actually trained here at Emory in the neuroscience program. I'm a trained laboratory scientist, so I am with the test tubes and the animals and that sort of thing, but I was never necessarily trained in how to effectively mentor and facilitate. So I have found that I am drawing on a lot of, I guess, coaching, a lot of psychology, a lot of sociology. I have found that I've become a mental health advisor. So a lot of different skills that I've had to go back and teach myself or find other resources for that training because it wasn't necessarily something that was front and center or even any aspect of my original PhD or postdoctoral or even early faculty training.

Ulemu Luhanga: 03:48

Indeed, indeed. And so I'm going to have you go backwards a bit in time for us, because I assume you didn't just start off a director of graduate studies. So can you tell us what was your journey that led to this current role?

Mike Caudle: 04:03

Oh, geez, how far back to go? No. I would say that we can start back at the beginning of faculty, so 14 years ago, and coming into this position and really being interested in the research, really wanting to make my scientific research the crux of my effort, but along that path, falling in love with teaching. And again, more broadly, falling in love with just engaging with students and helping them find their way.

Mike Caudle: 04:41

And so reflecting back on that, I started to realize that in my path, my entire life or academic path has been very circuitous, lots of ups and downs. That's very much the norm now for most people. But realizing that there were a lot of instances where I either didn't realize that I needed to ask questions or didn't know where to find information or was intimidated by asking those questions and was not being very proactive in that exploration or that information gathering. And recognizing that that really created a lot of stress in my life.

Mike Caudle: 05:32

Those were some of those, the underlying factors of that up and down path, and it probably could have gone a lot more smoothly if I had known where to ask, who to ask, and what I was looking for. So I've kind of made that my mission is to try to be present for students so that I can be either providing them with that information or providing them with some sort of direction so that they are able to identify and find the resources that they need for whatever it is they're trying to accomplish. Again, that may be in life or in their academic setting. So that's how it is, again, a reflection of my own experiences that have motivated me to this setting.

Ulemu Luhanga: 06:26

Yeah, that's such a powerful message because you're making me think back to when I was in my PhD and that challenge of where do I go? Who do I see? What do I do? So I really appreciate that you took that and really brought it into the work that you're doing. I'm curious, at any given time, how many PhD students are you coaching/mentoring?

Mike Caudle: 06:52

So within our program, at any one time total, we have about 25.

Ulemu Luhanga: 06:57

Oh, okay.

Mike Caudle: 06:58

And you can imagine, depending on where they are at in their training, first year through fourth or fifth year, they need different things. So I find that I'm being a little more conscientious and considerate of those early or junior students. So those first and second year students, and really being intentional with some of the engagements that I have with them. Just making sure that they understand what those resources are, who they can come and talk to, making them understand or trying to get them to understand that everybody's in the same boat. Everybody has moved along this PhD path. They've had similar ups and downs, and so they're in good company.

Ulemu Luhanga: 07:48

Indeed.

Mike Caudle: 07:48

They are not in isolation. They are not by themselves in this path, that there's a lot of other people that understand and we are here to help them. And then of course, as you get into the more senior students, their needs change. They're now thinking about next steps and careers and how to put their best foot forward for those next steps.

Ulemu Luhanga: 08:12

And now you've got me a little curious before I get to my next question officially for you, what types of careers do people do with a PhD in environmental health?

Mike Caudle: 08:25

So for our group, and it's probably different in different environmental health programs, we have a very nice pipeline from our program into CDC and other government agencies.

Ulemu Luhanga: 08:41

Okay.

Mike Caudle: 08:41

So I would say we're currently maybe about 70% of our students go into government. The other 30% are split into academia and a few doing private sector.

Ulemu Luhanga: 08:59

Thank you. So thinking about the work you've done to date, what do you wish you knew before stepping into this role?

Mike Caudle: 09:11

Well, I think I wish that I had had more of the training in the approaches that I'm utilizing every day. I wish I had had more training in how to be a good mentor, more training in some of these elements of coaching and more training in how to navigate mental health concerns because I would say that's what occupies 90% of my interactions with students. It's not academic.

Mike Caudle: 09:46

I mean, everybody here is brilliant, and they don't have these major academic concerns, it's these other underlying situations or issues that can potentially upend their academics. So it's getting to those more root issues because everybody's capable, but there may be these other barriers that are holding them back from that. So yeah, it's what I wish I knew. I wish I was better outfitted, I had more skills coming into this space.

Ulemu Luhanga: 10:25

Indeed, indeed. So thinking about that skills development piece, what continuing professional development do you do now to keep up with the needs of your role?

Mike Caudle: 10:34

So it's now being very proactive in seeking out those skill-building activities. So I actually just came from a seminar on crucial conversations or difficult conversations that was provided by an outside coaching program. I'm also part of the new founded Mentor and Fellows Program with Dawn Comeau and Jeff Staton. So that's been awesome so far. But really just seeking out these resources, whether that's on my own, reading articles, reading books, podcasts, videos, whatever, or going to these more formal workshops and seminars. Just trying to, again, build my own toolbox so that I at least know what's out there.

Mike Caudle: 11:26

And I think part of an important aspect, has been recognizing where I've reached my limit. So you have to demonstrate a bit of humility in this and say, "Okay, I am out of my league. Let's bring in the people that have more experience or the professionals." So being able to step back and say, "Okay, let me contact some people and put you in touch with some additional folks who can help you out."

Ulemu Luhanga: 12:01

So important, so important. Thank you. So what advice would you give someone interested in doing the same type of leadership role you have currently?

Mike Caudle: 12:15

I would say to really focus on being reflective, being able to reflect back on your own experiences and appreciating those experiences and being able to leverage those experiences as you're engaging with students, but at the same time, to be flexible. So understanding that each of those interactions is going to be different and that it's not going to be a one-size-fits-all solution to whatever the issue is.

Mike Caudle: 12:57

But reflecting and understanding that you have these skills. You may not know the name, you may not be able to name them, but you've had these experiences. So you have that experience to draw from that with each of those interactions, it's going to just continue to be elaborated.

Ulemu Luhanga: 13:18

Thank you. So thinking about the work that you do, how do you support or expand education in your profession or through your role?

Mike Caudle: 13:36

I would say really trying to be present and really trying to, again, elaborate my toolbox, elaborate my skillset so that I'm better prepared for those interactions with students. But now as DGS, recognizing that that skillset needs to be shared across not just students, but faculty. So I recognize that I can't be the only one doing this work, that it really needs to be spread out.

Mike Caudle: 14:13

So as I'm hopefully growing in my capacity and growing my resources, sharing those so that we now have a department who is best prepared or who are best prepared to engage with students and help them and facilitate their next steps.

Ulemu Luhanga: 14:33

Wonderful. Thank you. So as you think about the things you've done to date, what has been one of your greatest successes thus far?

Mike Caudle: 14:46

I would say that anything that has been focused on that mentoring and teaching aspect. I am, again, trained as a research scientist. I've published the papers. I have received the grants. I've done that. But the teaching, the mentoring, that was a new space for me.

Mike Caudle: 15:15

And so I take a lot of pride in being able to have these opportunities now to be recognized as a mentoring fellow or to be a part of the Intersections education journal, to be recognized for my teaching and mentoring. That's what I appreciate the most because it's what I've had to work the hardest at because it's not something that, well, again, that's something I wasn't trained in.

Ulemu Luhanga: 15:45

Great. You didn't have as part of bench-side 101...?

Mike Caudle: 15:51

No, this was not part of it. But I will say part of my apprehension and hesitancy to starting a faculty position was I didn't think that I would be able to mentor students and get them to where they wanted to be. I didn't have that confidence.

Mike Caudle: 16:18

But again, it took some reflection to sit there, to look back and say, "Well, you've worked with plenty of students. In your PhD, there were always junior students that you were working with that you were helping." And so that's mentoring, that's teaching. It just may not have been called that in the moment. So that was definitely helpful to where I could look and say, "Okay, I do have some of this experience. I'm not just starting from zero, so I have something to draw from."

Ulemu Luhanga: 16:51

Indeed. Can you tell us a bit more about this mentoring fellow program that started, I'm assuming it's in School of public health, or is it broader?

Mike Caudle: 17:00

It's broader. So this is a brand new program. So again, started by Dawn Comeau, who's in Rollins School of Public Health, and Jeff Staton, who's in LGS. It's basically a program to teach mentoring. It has a really nice final project. So within each of our programs or departments, we're going to get to design and implement and evaluate some sort of mentoring element. But it is a university-wide program.

Mike Caudle: 17:32

So I think there's maybe 15 people across the university. We've only had one session, but so far it's been awesome. The resources that have been provided, I'm having trouble focusing on the other work that I have to do because I want to just spend it all reading all these articles and watching all these videos.

Ulemu Luhanga: 17:56

Yes, I get that, lifelong learning.

Mike Caudle: 18:00

Uh-huh. But yeah, I think-

Ulemu Luhanga: 18:14

Okay, so after the little technical glitch that we just had, clearly Zoom felt some type of way about how much you love that mentoring program. And so I would love, because as you said, you're really into all of this learning. So what would you say are your biggest growth opportunities right now?

Mike Caudle: 18:43

I am finding that the growth opportunities come with each individual student interaction because they're all different. Every time somebody comes and whether it's in the hallway or in the laboratory or in my office or wherever, it's always something different. And so each of those interactions forces me to draw on the expertise that I have, the experiences that I have. But I find each one of those also extends or elaborates those experiences.

Mike Caudle: 19:23

And so I'm constantly collecting and growing with each of these interactions because there's lots of times when students have some sort of issue or concern and I'm like, "Hmm, okay, give me a minute. We're going to circle back around. I'm going to collect some thoughts and ideas, and then we're going to talk about this again." So yeah, it's a daily, almost hourly opportunity for growth.

Ulemu Luhanga: 19:54

Indeed, indeed. Never a dull moment where people are involved, right?

Mike Caudle: 20:01

No. No. They'll keep you on your toes.

Ulemu Luhanga: 20:02

Indeed, indeed. So as you think about everything you've done so far, what do you love most about your work and what you do?

Mike Caudle: 20:16

I think it is the, what I would call an aha moment. My interactions are mostly with students. So whether that's maybe they don't understand some material in the classroom and we're able to sit down and explain it in a different way or talk about it in a different way and really help clarify that for them. And you can almost, well, I mean in those situations you can see the stress almost leave their face and leave their body.

Mike Caudle: 20:47

And the same when they come with some other concern, whatever that may be, when you're able to even just provide a couple of options. So not necessarily solving a problem, but recognizing it, letting them know that they're not alone, but maybe just providing some other options or helping them have a different perspective on the situation.

Mike Caudle: 21:18

In each of those situations, you can again see the relief wash over their body. I mean, their body language changes. So those are the situations that I really appreciate because I know what that feels like. I've been that student, I've been stressed out. And to then feel that relief of some sort of a way forward is critical.

Ulemu Luhanga: 21:52

Oh, you're bringing back so many memories of being a PhD student.

Mike Caudle: 21:56

Yeah, PTSD.

Ulemu Luhanga: 22:01

Oh my goodness. But yes, as you're saying, you're reminding me of those faculty that I had that just were able to like, "I see you seem to have a lot going on. Sit with me and let's just talk."

Mike Caudle: 22:19

Those faculty are golden.

Ulemu Luhanga: 22:21

Yes. Yes. So much so you don't realize it in the moment, but afterwards you're like, "Wow. Yeah."

Mike Caudle: 22:30

But unfortunately that is not every faculty.

Ulemu Luhanga: 22:33

Absolutely, I didn't say every.

Mike Caudle: 22:37

Some by choice, but I think a lot are in the same situation that I found myself in, we are not trained for this. But we are in a new generation of mentoring, of teaching and student engagement, no matter the space that you're in. And so we are having to adapt, which is fine, but it's those one or two that don't want to adapt.

Ulemu Luhanga: 23:05

Yes. Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. There are those sticklers.

Mike Caudle: 23:16

Uh-huh.

Ulemu Luhanga: 23:17

So as I'm coming towards the end, got the last two questions, I would love you to zoom out and think overall reflecting on your experiences to date, what would you say your current passions are around education? Or what is your current educational philosophy?

Mike Caudle: 23:40

My current passions, I mean, it's really situated in the discussion that started this conversation, which is my goal is to help students on their path. My passion now is a little bit of a step back from that and helping students develop that comfort and the confidence to even take that first step. Taking that opportunity to go to recognizing that they are struggling with something and going and finding that one person to then start that solution-building process.

Mike Caudle: 24:36

I think so many times we get into these situations where something difficult has happened and you start to talk to students and you find out that this is something that's been going on for a week, a month, a year, whatever it is, and you're like, "Why are we just now talking about this?" And I get it, there's a lot of issues around that, but trying to lower that barrier, lower that barrier to access.

Mike Caudle: 25:13

And so that's been my focus most recently is just making sure students understand that we're here to help and we've had these experiences before and you're in a safe space. But also recognizing that it's ultimately up to them. I'm going to try a bunch of different tactics, but it's ultimately up to them to take that first step. I just need to figure out how to make them feel more comfortable in doing that. So that's been my more recent goal.

Ulemu Luhanga: 25:57

And such an important one because you're right, I think we talk about safe spaces and all of that, but I think back to when I was a student and it's like, "But I don't want to look like I don't know."

Mike Caudle: 26:14

I think as faculty, there's an incredible benefit to letting students know, or junior, anybody, letting them know that we all struggle. There's this element of failure, which I'm not a big fan of that word. I'm always looking for a synonym to it that's a little softer, but it happens to all of us. And in fact, you don't get here, you don't get anywhere in life without those misses. So it's a matter of how do you take those and use them and learn from them and actually make them a benefit rather than something one hundred percent negative.

Ulemu Luhanga: 27:07

And I love, reflecting back our session, you using that to help guide your work as a director of grad studies.

Mike Caudle: 27:18

It's taken a lot of years to be comfortable with my own failures and to be able to share them with people and to not feel ashamed of them and almost, not wear them with pride, but recognize how important they were to me becoming who I am as a person.

Ulemu Luhanga: 27:45

Yeah. Thank you. I know I've spent a lot of time talking about your career in education, but you are more than what you do. So what are some things you do outside of work to help you maintain joy in life and practice?

Mike Caudle: 28:02

Oh, that's the hardest question. That is by far the hardest question.

Ulemu Luhanga: 28:08

You do all the things?

Mike Caudle: 28:11

No, quite the opposite. To be honest with you, this is the work-life balance question where I struggle the most. It becomes a follow what I say, not what I do. But I have been trying to be more proactive in this space. So even little things for me, like when I get home going and putting my phone away, and so not touching it for several hours. Or for me, the most relaxing thing is to read. I will just walk in the door and go plant myself and read a book. Just that simple act, even if it's for just 30 minutes, is something that helps me reduce my stress level. And it doesn't matter what the genre of book is.

Ulemu Luhanga: 29:22

Ah, I was about to ask.

Mike Caudle: 29:23

Well, yeah, I read fairly widely. Really like to read horror books.

Ulemu Luhanga: 29:30

Okay.

Mike Caudle: 29:31

Psychological horror is my favorite, but even something like that is a stress reducer. I don't know what that says about me. Maybe edit that part out.

Ulemu Luhanga: 29:44

I was going to say, as somebody who watches forensic detectives all the time, I have no comments.

Mike Caudle: 29:51

There you go. Those would be my little initial forays into having a little bit more balance in life.

Ulemu Luhanga: 30:11

There you go. That way you can work on that practicing what you preach.

Mike Caudle: 30:17

Yeah, I can only go up.

Ulemu Luhanga: 30:20

There you go. There you go. Thank you so much for your time, Mike. And before I let you go, any last words of wisdom for aspiring educators or education leaders?

Mike Caudle: 30:35

If you are someone who maybe doesn't see yourself in the educational space, don't close that door because there are a lot of different ways to educate. It does not have to be in a classroom. It does not even have to be in an academic setting. You are an educator in your community. You are an educator at your dinner table. So there are a lot of ways to educate, to mentor, and to facilitate.

Ulemu Luhanga: 31:11

Thank you so much. Those are awesome words to end on.

Mike Caudle: 31:16

Well, thank you for having me. This has been excellent.