Lessons from Danielle Roberts MS, MMSc, PA-C

Ulemu Luhanga: 00:02

Hello listeners, welcome to Educational Landscapes, Lessons from Leaders. On today's episode, we are going to learn from Danielle Roberts. Welcome to the show, Danielle.

Danielle Roberts: 00:13

Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

Ulemu Luhanga: 00:15

Wonderful. So, to get us going, what is your educational leadership title or titles?

Danielle Roberts: 00:21

I am the Associate Chief of Education for Advanced Practice for the Winship Cancer Institute.

Ulemu Luhanga: 00:27

Ooh, that sounds like a really big title name there. What do you do in that role?

Danielle Roberts: 00:33

So my role is unique in that I am the director of our APP [Advanced Practice Provider] Fellowship, and I have a co-director that works with me as well too. And then I also oversee all the onboarding and orientations for our new hires. And then I also help with the placement of all of our advanced practice students, both from the PA [Physician Assistant] programs as well as the nurse practitioner programs. So it keeps me very busy.

Ulemu Luhanga: 00:58

Indeed. And thank you. I was about to ask you who is covered under APP. And you just said that towards the end there. Thank you. What skills do you use, given how busy you are with that role?

Danielle Roberts: 01:13

So I think this is... When I was looking through the questions, this is the one I was most worried about because I think the skills is a lot of different skills, so it's a lot of verbal skills. So I'm constantly talking to either new hires or students. A lot of auditory. So working with kind of... with all the different programs and things that are out there, especially for different types and styles of learning.

Danielle Roberts: 01:39

So whether it's using podcasts or other videos and things like that to help with learning. But I think the other, it's those skills that we learned on the playground, be nice to everybody, treat people how we want to be treated. And then I feel like it's constantly just kind of reading and trying to be as adaptable as I possibly can be because everybody's different, everybody's situations are a little bit unique, and everybody doesn't fit into the same box.

Ulemu Luhanga: 02:10

Yeah, absolutely. And now you've... That's a very important thing about the uniqueness of the folks coming in. And so I'm curious. When you've got the students coming in, are they brand new hires, 20-year-olds, or you get a big mix of individuals?

Danielle Roberts: 02:28

We get a big mix of individuals. So we definitely have the new hires that are the 20-year-olds that have just graduated from their prospective programs. And then we have those that are changing jobs. So either they were doing oncology at another institution, and they're moving to us, or they were doing emergency medicine or internal medicine, and they're switching to oncology. And so, it's all different types of learners-

Ulemu Luhanga: 02:51

Wow...

Danielle Roberts: 02:52

... that come through our system, which makes it fun.

Ulemu Luhanga: 02:54

Indeed, indeed. And I can just imagine that range within the cohort and what they learn from each other. That's-

Danielle Roberts: 03:00

Yeah.

Ulemu Luhanga: 03:01

... amazing. Thank you. So I recognize you probably didn't start off in the role that you have. So what was your journey that led to this current role?

Danielle Roberts: 03:12

So when I was in... when you're in PA school and everything in your learning how to be a PA and how to function in our clinics and stuff, I knew at that point I was like, "I want to be in academics." But it was always trying to figure out what part of the academics. My background is that I was a lab rat, and I used to write protocols for clinical trials. And so I was like, "Is it going to be that part in the academic world, or is it going to be in some other facet?"

Danielle Roberts: 03:37

And as I started... One of the great things about being at Emory and as I started here is that there's so many different opportunities. And so we were having students that were coming through. We would have new hires that I would be working with. And as I was doing all these different things, I found that I really liked having the students or people that were learning with me. So I really liked the role of a preceptor.

Ulemu Luhanga: 04:01

Mm-hmm.

Danielle Roberts: 04:01

I think it's an important role for not only bringing in new hires and getting them up to speed, but also it's really important to be a great preceptor for... to shepherd in that kind of new wave of all of our new practitioners that are coming through so we can embark in all the journey that they're going to be on, but also pass along the knowledge and kind of the little tips and things that we've learned along the way that makes us better. And so I think from there it just kind of grew. I was like, "I really like this. I want to do more."

Danielle Roberts: 04:30

And so from there, it was starting to work with Nassoma Bumpers, who was at the time the education lead. And so I spent a lot of time with Somi and learning from her and then just kind of continuing on that journey. And just as you're trying to figure it out, you always take on more and you do more, not always with the recognition that goes along with it, but that's okay. That's how we get to the places where we're at and just kind of kept going. I, at one point, became the kind of lead for bone marrow transplant, and that was supervising people. And I found that I'm not really good at that. I don't like that as much.

Danielle Roberts: 05:06

There are people... We need people who supervise people, but it wasn't for me. It was really the education part that I find joy in my job and really wanted to continue on. So that's kind of kept me in this role. And so, now it's all about trying to figure out how I can expand the role and grow and then how we can bring other people into education lands so that people know there's multiple opportunities for leadership. And it doesn't always have to be a people supervisor for that.

Ulemu Luhanga: 05:31

Oh, that resonates with me so much. Especially that part about... People tease me because I'm like, "I don't want to manage people. I want to coach people. I want to educate people, but I don't want to manage people."

Danielle Roberts: 05:43

I don't want to manage people, no. I'm with you.

Ulemu Luhanga: 05:48

Thank you so much for sharing that and that there's such breadth to what can be considered leadership within the spaces we work. So, as you reflect on your experiences to date, what do you wish you knew before stepping into the current role?

Danielle Roberts: 06:06

That's a tough question. I think there's always so much that you learn as you do things. And I think the biggest piece for me is I tend to be very much a perfectionist. And I think the biggest piece that I think I wish I knew is I don't have to always get it right. And it doesn't have to be perfect because it's never going to be perfect, and perfection actually doesn't exist. And it's okay, and people are gracious.

Danielle Roberts: 06:35

And when you tell them, "Hey, I made a mistake," and you just kind of own it, I think those are always those biggest lessons that have been important to be just like, "You know what? It's okay to say I don't know what I'm doing. This is the first time I'm doing it." And it took me a minute to be okay with that because, at the beginning of coming into the role, I was like, "I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just going to figure it out, and then hopefully, I will look good while I'm figuring it out."

Danielle Roberts: 07:01

Now, as our roles have all changed and the healthcare system continues to grow, I find myself saying a lot of times going, "You know what, guys? This is the first time I've ever done this. We're going to figure it out together." And I think I wish I would've been okay with that at the beginning, and I wish somebody would've just said, "Hey, this is... And they may have actually said that to me, and I probably didn't hear it, but, "It's okay not to know. It's okay to continue to ask questions, and it's okay to make mistakes and continue to learn from them."

Ulemu Luhanga: 07:27

Oh, Such wise words because I agree with you. I know, not that I have it in full force, but that perfectionism... I'm like, "Just get it done. Just get it done." Thank you. So as you think about the role and the complexity of the different things that you do, what continuing professional development do you do in order to keep up with the needs of your role?

Danielle Roberts: 07:53

Yeah. So I mean, I think the biggest thing that I did for myself was the WHEA Teaching Fellowship. That has been a phenomenal experience, and is I think my brain is still recovering from all the information that's been passed along there and trying to figure out how to use all the information. So I love that that was offered and, of course, that I was able to participate in it because I think it's been great in my professional development. And then it's opened my eyes to all the other things that are out there. So I'm constantly reading, but then increasing that scope of what I'm reading.

Danielle Roberts: 08:23

So it doesn't have to always be that specific medical journal on a diagnosis that I'm looking at. It's looking at other educational platforms and those journals and how can I extrapolate that learning into making what I'm doing at Winship better. And then I think the other piece of it is always figuring out is there another learning opportunity that I need to go into. And so right now, I'm actually looking at the Doctorate in Medical Science programs and seeing if that's kind of that next journey for me for my own professionalism and education. And I think I'm going to do it, but I'm still trying to figure that part out a little bit. It's a big deal taking back on classes and student loans and all of that again.

Ulemu Luhanga: 09:11

Absolutely. Absolutely. That was... You've reminded me when I did decide to do my Ph.D., and once I finished, people kept being surprised that I would... When they're like, "I'm thinking of doing a Ph.D." I'd be like, "But why?"

Danielle Roberts: 09:26

It's true. You have to think of all those things. What does it mean? What will it do for me? Is it going to benefit... Is it going to make things better for me, or is it just going to add on burden?

Ulemu Luhanga: 09:34

Exactly. Because that was definitely a big piece for me. I knew I was going to, for example, work in higher ed, where it does help to have that doctor title, but I had a colleague who was finishing ahead of me, and the work that she did, it actually didn't even give her extra money, so it ended up having to be a thing for herself rather than. So yeah, I'm like, "I'm not saying don't do it, but know why you're doing it because it is a couple of years."

Danielle Roberts: 10:03

Very true.

Ulemu Luhanga: 10:04

Yes. So I wish you all the best if you do pursue.

Danielle Roberts: 10:09

Thank you.

Ulemu Luhanga: 10:10

So what advice would you give someone interested in doing the same type of leadership role that you have?

Danielle Roberts: 10:17

So the biggest advice that I give people who are interested in leadership roles is though you have to want to do it, and you have to be willing to do it without the recognition and sometimes without the pay that goes along with it. So the majority of us who are in roles have done them for the love of doing it. So I would never be where I was at if I didn't just love teaching and take... and precepting because I would never have been given the additional opportunities for that. So I think that's the first piece. So many of us focus on kind of the monetary, which is important, right. Because life's expensive and living in Atlanta is expensive, so that has to come with it.

Danielle Roberts: 10:54

But we have to be willing to kind of work... sometimes work a little bit extra, work a little bit differently in order to achieve those goals. And I think the other piece of it is you've got to... if you don't love the learning process of it, and if you don't love the teaching process, then maybe the education piece is not right for you. Maybe it is the people supervising piece that's right for you. But I think for those that are really enjoyed being in school and really enjoyed learning different ways of teaching and the different concepts of teaching I think that the education role is going to be perfect for you, and we need those people because there's not enough of us out there. Most people feel that the pathway and the leadership really is that people supervisor. And for the most jobs it is.

Danielle Roberts: 11:43

So the education role is very different, but it's growing. So, as I look at what other institutions are doing, there are people like me out there, and there are people like Nassoma Bumpers out there. And so we need to continue to grow that because our profession's important. It's important to the medical field. And without this little piece of it, I don't know that it's going to ... It needs that to continue to grow. So I would just encourage people to be willing to take on that... Work-life balance is important, but be willing to take on that one little extra thing because it really is going to help, and it's going to help propel you that pathway that you want to go forward.

Ulemu Luhanga: 12:17

Thank you. And now, as you say that, I'm actually curious, do you think there was a point in time there was some shift that led to more of these educator leader roles in your field?

Danielle Roberts: 12:30

I do. I think the big one is as we look at turnover rates for advanced practice, and we look at how much it costs to hire, onboard, and keep somebody, and when they leave within six months, you have to go back and look at the reasons why they're leaving. And so I think that was the first big piece that said, "Hey, we need to be doing something different with how we onboard. What is the role for onboarding?" And then as you look at all the kind of job criteria that go into this, there's that where that need for that education kind of component came in from just from an onboarding standpoint.

Danielle Roberts: 13:03

And then when you start looking at that part being successful, "Okay, well then, how do we get our students to be successful and want to come work with us, right?" So then that's the feeder piece into it. And as I sit on other kind of committees throughout the nation, that's a big one of... big pieces that we talk about is that retention and how do we do that? And that's where I see those developments of the kind of education piece throughout the different institutions.

Ulemu Luhanga: 13:28

Oh, that's amazing. Thank you. And so, building on that kind of topic, how do you view succession planning?

Danielle Roberts: 13:38

So I think every good leader should be looking at their succession plan because, one, we shouldn't stay in that same leadership role forever. We all need our own individual growth opportunities, but the other people need growth opportunities. And then we need that new blood to come in and provide new ideas, new ways of doing things, because just because one person did it that way doesn't mean it's the right way or it doesn't mean it needs to be that way forever. So that's something that I've been working on a lot in my own professional development because I've been in this role since... well, as the associate chief is newer, but the education role I've been doing since 2019.

Danielle Roberts: 14:14

And so somebody else needs to be able to come in behind me and make it better and do it differently and continue to grow it. And so we have been working within the Winship Cancer Institute at expanding our kind... what we... what Somi called a long time ago, the Office of Education, and what we're now actually doing. And so within that, I have an education lead, and then we have associate leads in education now. And so it's we're growing this leadership kind of backbone to be able to hopefully, over time, as people move and roles change, that we can pull from this little group of us to go into that next step.

Danielle Roberts: 14:51

But also, it allows opportunity for, again, those new ideas to come in and new expertise, and for people to be able to... to people to be able to, in their own individual growths, to figure out if education's where they want to be, give them the opportunities. And if it's not, they can figure out what we want to do next. But also, for me, it lets me continue. If I do want to go get that doctorate, it lets me know, "Hey, I've built this here. All these people are ready to take on the role. It's going to be great, and they're going to move in, and it's going to continue. And these all things that Somi started and worked so hard to do and that I've been able to grow, it's going to... people are going to come in behind us, continue to grow it and take it further and make it better."

Ulemu Luhanga: 15:37

Indeed. I really love that because it's true. As a single person, our ideas can only get so far, which is why collaboration is so important and new blood. Thank you. So recognizing you love education, how do you support or expand education in your profession or through your roles?

Danielle Roberts: 15:59

So what we have been doing to kind of expand it in growth is we have been creating monthly CME lecture series. And so we have been kind of stealing ideas from everybody else. The physicians are great about doing their grand rounds and doing topics that are pertinent to what they do, and a lot of that tends to be more scientific. So kind of taking that. Not that the scientific part is not important to us, but kind of taking those ideas and creating our own version of a grand rounds that are just for advanced practice. And so we've started doing that. We're in our... starting our third year of doing that now.

Danielle Roberts: 16:33

And so it's every month, and we have different topics that are not just oncology-based topics but tend to be different topics that will be important to our individual growth. So whether it's cardiology, dermatology, we even have the interpreters coming in to give us a lecture on how to really use interpreters and use them well. So that's coming up. So that's been one thing that we've done. The other piece of it is we've created a yearly CME conference. And so allowing us to have our kind of two days of educational lectures that are on topics that are important to the growth of advanced practice.

Danielle Roberts: 17:10

And so this year, we're incorporating writers' workshops. How do you write an abstract? And doing some more kind of working on those skills as well too. So I think those are the biggest things that we're doing to kind of increase our own education within our institution. Nationally, I sit on a couple of Oncology 102 education platforms, so creating oncology-based learning lectures that can be used for new-hire practitioners across any type of setting. So whether they're community oncology or academic settings.

Danielle Roberts: 17:47

So I sit on that, and that's lot of fun because I work with nurse practitioners and PAs from all around the United States. And so everybody has their own people that they like, and they use, and the way that they do things. And so I've been able to learn a lot from them and also make those connections, which is great for growth within that I can use to help grow Winship as well too. So I'm really enjoying kind of expanding my knowledge base across the... and learning from everybody else as well too across the United States, which has been fun.

Ulemu Luhanga: 18:18

Oh, that is amazing. And I can just imagine with people working in different types of systems and different types of areas, that must be so rich in terms of what you learn about what can happen where.

Danielle Roberts: 18:32

It really is, and people do some really exciting and neat things, and it's one of those things that you're like, "I didn't even think about doing that." And so it's so great to learn, always learning from other people that are around us, which is important.

Ulemu Luhanga: 18:45

Indeed, indeed. So question for you here. What contributed to your biggest successes thus far because you've done amazing things. So I'm curious.

Danielle Roberts: 18:57

So I really think it's all about mentorship, and I 100% would not be where I'm at without mentorship. And so I know I've talked a lot about Somi Bumpers. I always say that she and I were separated at birth. She is an amazing human being, and she has been instrumental into getting me where I'm at. And so mentorship has... I think for anybody who doesn't see the value in mentorship, has probably just not had a good mentor.

Danielle Roberts: 19:21

And so that is one of the things that we have been working hard in our APP Fellowship is creating those good mentorship pathways, and so that everybody sees the value of it, and then hopefully they'll continue being and having good mentors. So I really think between Somi, and then with Charise Gleason and then Mary Jo Lechowicz, who is a physician that I've had the pleasure of working with and learning from all these years, I definitely would not be anywhere close to where I'm at because they're also the people that are like, "What is wrong with you? You're acting a little strange today?"

Danielle Roberts: 19:53

And you need those people in your life, right, so that you can have that own look back at what you're, "Oh yeah, I am acting a little crazy today. Maybe I need to take a walk around the park." So you need those people, but they also are the ones that are like, "Why aren't you doing this? This is what you should be doing. Have you thought about doing that?" And so I really, really, really see the value of mentorship, and I would encourage everybody to look at the people that are around them and is there somebody that they can work with, somebody else that can mentor them to help them achieve their goals that they're looking to do.

Ulemu Luhanga: 20:22

Thank you. I think you are so right that mentorship is so important, and yet it's almost one of those things that I think people think is implicit that we should know what it means and how to do it, and yet it's so important.

Danielle Roberts: 20:37

Agreed. Because I think... I mean, one of the things that we do in our fellowship is we actually teach them how to set up a mentorship kind of plan and how to work with that. And until we started doing that, I didn't even know that existed, right.

Ulemu Luhanga: 20:48

Right...

Danielle Roberts: 20:49

And so I think there's some very good platforms out there to look at for mentorship. We just have to give people the tools to be able to do it.

Ulemu Luhanga: 20:56

Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you. So recognizing that you are a lover of learning, what are your biggest growth opportunities right now?

Danielle Roberts: 21:08

So I think personally, for me, the biggest growth opportunities are not becoming stagnant and continuing to see what else is out there that we can implement or can we continue to grow upon. So I think that's always my biggest concern is that we just keep doing it the way we've done it because that's worked for us, and we don't change it up or try things new. So that is the piece that I'm looking at the most is trying to always figure out is there a better way to do it.

Danielle Roberts: 21:36

And then how do I get those resources? So is it going to an educational conference versus the scientific conference? And then again, what are... the WHEA Teaching Fellowship has been fantastic for that. And then are there other opportunities within Winship, or are there other opportunities outside of that that will offer kind of different growth opportunities to learn and expand upon what we're doing already?

Ulemu Luhanga: 21:59

Great. You just made me wonder, within the APP world, are there education conferences that people attend?

Danielle Roberts: 22:06

Not a whole lot. And so that's the part where I've struggled. There are, within specific conferences, some educational pieces. So you'll find a lecture like onboarding new hires, or you'll find some kind of professional development leadership lectures. But there's not just a full session or even a conference that's dedicated to that. Not yet. Maybe that's my next step.

Ulemu Luhanga: 22:31

Dun-dah-dah. That's what I was like, "Ooh, I am waiting for her to say not yet."

Danielle Roberts: 22:36

Exactly.

Ulemu Luhanga: 22:38

Oh, love it, love it, love it. So as you think about all you've done and what you're thinking of doing, what would you say you love most about your work and what you do?

Danielle Roberts: 22:52

So my days that bring me the biggest joy are the days where when I'm with the learners and the students. And so I'm a society leader in the Emory PA program, and I love my Wednesday afternoons. They're excited, and they ask questions, and they make me rethink why I do all this. And sometimes I'm like, "Oh man, I haven't done this in years. Maybe I should go back to doing it that way." So that's the piece that brings me a lot of joy. The fellowship Fridays where I spend all Friday with our fellows because, again, it's their... they're so inquisitive. They're asking great questions. They make me use my brain, which we all need to do. So I love that part of my job.

Danielle Roberts: 23:36

And then the clinical piece of it as well too. I mean, I think to be a good leader, we have... especially if you're leading and you're involved in patient care at all, I think you have to have and maintain that piece of it. Would never want to give up my clinical side of it too. So I really, as I say this, I think it's the balance between the two. I mean, I've got the best of both worlds. I've got education time that I get to do, and then I have my clinical time where I get... I mean, that's the whole reason why I started, or I became a PA in the first place, is to serve the patients. And so I get the best of both worlds.

Ulemu Luhanga: 24:05

Awesome. So now I'm curious. You mentioned with the PA students, you're a society lead. How many students do you have?

Danielle Roberts: 24:12

I have eight PA students now that are... Ah, I shouldn't say hopefully. They will. They were all going to be amazing PAs when they graduate, but it's really fun working with them. And I've only been... It's going to be a year in July, so I'm the new kid on the block with doing this, but it really is the best part of my week. It's super fun.

Ulemu Luhanga: 24:31

That is amazing. And how long do you have them? For the entire year?

Danielle Roberts: 24:35

We do. We have them for the entire year. Well, actually, so the PA program is two and a half years long.

Ulemu Luhanga: 24:40

Okay.

Danielle Roberts: 24:41

So really once they're... the core time where I spend the most amount of time with them is going to really be about a year, and then they move on to their clinical. So we spend less time with them, but they're still part of our little group, so we'll keep them the entire time they're in the program.

Ulemu Luhanga: 24:55

Oh, awesome. And then, for the fellows, how many fellows do you have per year?

Danielle Roberts: 24:59

I have four fellows, and they... and it's for a year. And so it's an intensive year. We keep them busy. And then we're hoping to expand the fellowship to six. And so that's the plan for growth in this next year.

Ulemu Luhanga: 25:12

Cool. Fingers crossed for you.

Danielle Roberts: 25:14

Yes.

Ulemu Luhanga: 25:14

Fingers crossed.

Danielle Roberts: 25:14

Thank you.

Ulemu Luhanga: 25:16

So we're coming to the last two questions, and this last one is just getting you to kind of reflect on your experiences to date. And what would you say your passions around education are right now? Or what is your education philosophy?

Danielle Roberts: 25:33

So I think my biggest passion around education right now is really looking at how people learn and the diversity in which people learn. So I always draw back to my daughter's dyslexic. She had to go to a dyslexic immersion program, and I think that was a huge eye-opener, was learning how different everybody's learning styles are. And if you right... ask the right questions when I'm working with people, I actually find that everybody learns differently and everybody's got different styles, and not everybody needs it... needs information given to them the same way. So I think that's my biggest kind of what I'm learning on and what I'm trying to reflect on is how learning differences that comprise about 20% of the population.

Danielle Roberts: 26:16

And most people won't acknowledge that they have a learning difference because they don't want to be viewed as not smart, which is not the case. It has nothing to do with intelligence. It's just we have to tailor the way we do things differently. And so, that's where I've been spending a lot of my time is trying to figure out how to do that. How to do it respectfully for people because you don't want to make them feel bad about it. And how to get people to also acknowledge that they learn maybe a little bit differently and make them... again, make them feel safe as they do that. So that's been a big piece of what I've been trying to work on over the last couple of years.

Ulemu Luhanga: 26:50

Oh, so important. I think about how I've been reading and seeing how there's a lot of people who are diagnosed, for example, with ADHD, but in adulthood. And so, how many coping mechanisms did they have to work through along the way? Yeah.

Danielle Roberts: 27:08

Yes. No, it is. I mean, I'll give away my age, but when I graduated, I mean, I graduated high school in 1994, and we didn't acknowledge any differences in learnings, right. And so as we... So for people my age, it's we're not going to acknowledge it. We don't want people to think differently about us, but the great thing about our kids is our kids encompass all the diversity that there is in life. And so it's an amazing time to be a kid, an amazing time to grow up because your differences are actually applauded now, and we need to be better about doing that with adults.

Ulemu Luhanga: 27:42

Indeed, indeed. Thank you. So my last question. I know I've spent a lot of time asking you about work-related things, and I know you are more than what you do. So what are some things you do outside of work to help you maintain joy in life and practice?

Danielle Roberts: 28:00

So I'm going to talk about my daughter a little bit. So she plays soccer. So I spent a ton of time on the soccer fields, but I actually love it. I'm outside. I'm in the sunshine, in the fresh air, and I get to watch her do what she loves. So that's a big part of what I do. For me, though, I love my vacations, and my coworkers will tell you that if I don't get my vacations that I'm starting to get a little hard to deal with. So I need my vacation. So those, I love being on the beach.

Danielle Roberts: 28:26

That's my happy place and with a great book in my hand. So reading, spending time on the beach, hanging out with my kid. Really it's... And she's going to be a high schooler, so my time with her at home is starting to lessen, so I'm really... That's what brings me joy right now. And so I'm sure it will change after she graduates high school, but right now, it's all about kind of continuing to soak in all those moments that I have with her and doing fun things with the family.

Ulemu Luhanga: 28:50

Oh, I love that. Soaking in her, soaking in the sun, soaking in that beach life. Love it.

Danielle Roberts: 28:55

Yes, absolutely.

Ulemu Luhanga: 28:58

Well, thank you so much, Danielle, for taking your time to share your lessons learned so far with our listeners. Before I let you go, any last words of wisdom to share with aspiring educators or education leaders?

Danielle Roberts: 29:15

My words of wisdom is if you think it'll work, try it. It never hurts to try. And if you don't try, you never know. And just enjoy and love what you do because if you love what you do, you're going to be successful at doing it.

Ulemu Luhanga: 29:26

Oh, I love that. Perfect words to end on. Thank you so much, Danielle.

Danielle Roberts: 29:30

Thank you so much. It was fun doing this.